My guest this week is Dr. Kristin Kobes Du Mez, author of a recent book called Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation (affiliate link). We explored the definition of an “evangelical,” which apparently I was for the first half of my life (without realizing it), and themes of a patriarchal, male-centered, even toxic masculinity that pervades many evangelical circles. We also considered how it is that evangelical Christianity became so wrapped up in notions of patriotism, military strength, and other things that don’t necessarily come from the life and message of Jesus Christ. Even if a person comes to reject the teachings from their evangelical upbringing, it can be a real challenge to let go of the attitudes and assumptions that have been instilled in us from a young age, as I know from personal experience.

Kristin and I shared openly about our understanding of Christ, and the sadness that I certainly feel from the realization that we so often miss the central message of the Gospel—like somehow we just lost our way. And there’s a lot to grieve when we realize how much we squander when we pattern our identity as religious followers after the worldly way of doing things, and how it doesn’t seem to lead to something transcendent, like it could.

Other topics we touched on included:

• The whirlwind that Kristin has experienced since the publication of her book
• The difficulty in defining an “evangelical” Christian
• Different pronunciations of “evangelical” (EE-van vs. EV-an)
• The four-part definition of evangelical theology
• Common racial differences in belief and practice among “evangelical” Christians
• Themes of masculinity and militarism in white evangelical Christianity
• White patriarchal authority within evangelical circles
• Developing greater empathy for evangelicals
• My own experience reading Kristin’s book as someone with an evangelical background
• Struggling to change longstanding beliefs even if we don’t explicitly believe them anymore
• Developing one’s identity as a woman around purity, perfection, and female submission
• The Act of Marriage by Tim and Beverly LeHaye
• The lenses or “schemas” through which we experience the world
• Evangelical views on gender and sexuality
• Evangelicals’ pro-sex attitudes (within heterosexual, patriarchal practices)
• The link in evangelical thinking between sexual behavior and national security
• Patriotism, American flags, and evangelicalism
• The Cold War as a crucible for modern day evangelicalism
• Some of the things that evangelicals fear that produce a persecution complex
• The radically counter-cultural message of Jesus’s life
• What drew me back to Christ
• Ways that the message of Jesus has been squandered in White evangelicalism
• Realizing that the fate of The Church does not rest on White evangelicalism
• Possible positive contributions of the evangelical world view
• Historical strands of blatant White supremacy in evangelicalism
• The freedom in releasing unhelpful religious biases and assumptions
• The frequent high costs of going against one’s evangelical roots

Kristin Kobes Du Mez, PhD, is a New York Times bestselling author and Professor of History and Gender Studies at Calvin University.

She holds a PhD from the University of Notre Dame and her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics.

Kristin has written for The New York Times, The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today, and has been interviewed on NPR, CBS, and the BBC, among other outlets.

Find Kristin online at her website and on Twitter and Facebook.