My guest this week is the inimitable Dr. Steven C. Hayes, creator of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT, pronounced like the word “act”). I was excited for the opportunity to talk with Steve, and he certainly did not disappoint.

We got into some really fascinating territory together, starting with the crucial importance of psychological flexibility. From there we ranged into comparisons of ACT and traditional cognitive behavioral therapy, and some of the potential pitfalls of a cognitive approach.

Many of the ideas we talked about are described in his most recent book, A Liberated Mind (affiliate link), which is excellent. Toward the end of our discussion we explored Steve’s take on religion and spirituality, and how ACT fits with these deeply human areas. The beauty of ACT principles, as Steve says so clearly, is how widely they apply, really to all areas of human activity.

So whether you’re dealing with overwhelming anxiety or panic, or your mind is constantly feeding you self-hating thoughts, or you want to live a fuller and richer life with less strain, I think there’s a lot you’ll find useful in this conversation.

Topics we talked about included:

• The essence of ACT
• How to talk about that which is beyond language
• Understanding the processes that liberate people
• The central importance of psychological flexibility
• The innate drive to engage fully with life
• The double-edged sword of evaluative, judgmental language
• The usefulness of emotions
• Abraham Maslow and self-actualization
• How mental rigidity robs us of happiness
• The Person-in-a-Hole metaphor
• Coming to therapy with a solution already in mind
• The possibility of using acceptance and mindfulness as tools of avoidance
• Acceptance as receiving all of our experience
• Steve’s experience with panic disorder
• What happens when we stop fighting panic
• The impossibility of tricking our own minds
• The efficacy of paradoxical interventions
• The risks in trying to get rid of our negative thoughts
• The power in simply noticing our thoughts, without disputing or changing them
• Comparisons of ACT vs. traditional CBT
• The applicability of ACT principles of change to a wide range of conditions and outcomes
• Learning basic skills that can relate to many new problems and contexts
• ACT as a deeply spiritual practice
• Embedding evidence-based psychological principles into existing wisdom traditions
• The wide-ranging benefits of religious faith and practice
• How an ACT approach might change the way we pray
• The positive effects of prayer
• Steve’s early introduction to religion and faith

Here are some of the books Steve mentioned (affiliate links):

• ACT for Clergy and Pastoral Counseling
• Darwin’s Cathedral by David Sloan Wilson

Steve has two TEDx talks:

• Psychological Flexibility
• Mental Brakes to Avoid Mental Breaks

This is the research article from 1984 that Steve talked about: “Making Sense of Spirituality.”

The Sounds True audio book: Acceptance and Commitment Therapy: Principles of Becoming More Flexible, Effective, and Fulfilled

Steven C. Hayes, PhD, is a Nevada Foundation Professor of Psychology in the Behavior Analysis Program at the University of Nevada. An author of 46 books and nearly 650 scientific articles, he is especially known for his work on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which is one of the most widely used and researched new methods of psychological intervention over the last 20 years.

Steve has received several national awards, such as the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapy. His popular book Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life for a time was the best-selling self-help book in the United States, and his new book A Liberated Mind has received wide acclaim.

Steve’s TEDx talks have been viewed by over 700,000 people, and he is ranked among the most cited psychologists in the word.

Find Steve online at his website where you can take his free 7 course mini-series on ACT.

Links to books on the page are affiliate links.